Messianic plan - historical and present visions.

Messianic plan
J. L. Horner grew up in a Catholic environment in U.S.A. He tells that every moment of his childhood he was scared about hell: "I could tell you horror stories about the visions of hell that the God Damned Catholic Church filled my little head with as a child" he told me in an e-message." As an adult Horner abandoned the Church and his faith. He continue: "All of Jesus' supposed "miracles" and all of Jesus' "good" "teaching" were all a trap for Jesus' New Testament's eternal torture on humans. I know of noone else in any other religion who ever cursed any humans or humanity to eternal torture for unbelief in himself - Jesus did that very thing. And people believe he is a savior of humans."  

Last summer J. L. Horner published the book "Little Pope Peep" that he had been working on for several years. To put the book on market he kept a frequently visited web-site, that he unfortunately had to close by the end of the year. It resulted in an open and vital discussion, as Horner challanged Christian leaders to tell him some conditions that Jesus really did change for humanity. "Do we sin less now than before Jesus?" "Did people turn away from God to a greater extent before Jesus?" were some of his rethorical questions.

What do you think? Below you will find my answer to Horner and a couple of other entries from his web-site. Comment on any of them and I'll try to bring you in touch with the author.

My own perceptions

These are seven of the conditions I think he did change for us.


1. clarified to us who God really is. The true nature of God was not very clear under the O C.

2. really revealed and exposed our sinful nature. The closer we get to him the more obvious it will become to us.

3. fulfilled all prophesies about the Messiah. Through thousands of years different persons heralded and presaged his arrival. (Most of them did probably not know of what they did. However, today we can see the patterns.)

4. took the iniquity of us all upon himself. He did set every singel human free from the eternal condemnation that we had steped into. Nobody else can or could have done that.

5. conquered fysical and spiritual death. "Where, O death, is your sting?" "Where, O death, is your victory?"

6. saved us all from being aligned with Satan, and gave us arms and armory for a final victory over evil.

7. sent us the Spirit of Truth. He is in labour among us still.

J. L. Horner Monday, 10/18/04, 3:38 AM

 Wade, You have just given a ton of examples of how the STORY OF JESUS is a story that was borrowed from other Mythological stories about others. Most probably Jesus was a real human being who lived within decads of and before the gospels were written. However the gospels were written most probably decades later. You have to realize that during the Roman conquest there was alot of trade throughout the Roman empire. There was alot of people traveling around from place to place. Stories traveled far and wide. In order to make their Jesus big and important those, who were making thier living preaching Jesus and who were also scaring everyone with the end of the world, were telling every one Jesus was coming back during their lifetime to take the believers to heaven and the unbelievers were going to be punished by eternal fire. In order to make their Jesus as big as all the myths floating around about all of the mythological figures people believed in at the time the promoters of the new money making religion of Christianity had to make Jesus out to be someone as big and as astonishing as all these other mythological figures and the stories about them that were running rapid at the time. The similarity of the stories about Jesus and the already existing stories about all of the mythological characters only is evidence the stories about Jesus are mere copies of pagan myths. Thank you for pointing out many of the similarities. However, I believe you are nuts for thinking that Jesus was a manifestation of God because the stories about him paralleled these other mythological stories. The paralles that any experts in ancient mythology can see to the stories about Jesus are proof the stories about Jesus were mostly made up. 30 to 90 years after someone lived is a long time to accurately record Jesus words and actions. What the N T claims Jesus to have said and done were in many if not most cases never said or done by Jesus. I think you have totally gone off the deep end in your belifs. You are trying to rationalize all of the myths and religions of past human imagination as being a revelation of God just because they include some good teaching. That is the BIG trap of all religions - they mix in good teachings with all of their mythology and millions of people are duped by it all. Also you failed to justify the existence of eternal torture of humans for unbelief in humans. Your dreams have no validity. If you put credence in your dreams and believe in hell just because you were able to imagine a trip there, then I challenge your ability to be rational.

Wade C. Sunday, 10/17/04, 11:28 PM

Here I found this to show the story of Jesus is through all religions the names change but the story remains. So you may try to discount Christanity but in so doing you would also have to discount all of these Religions as well many much older than Christianity. This increases my faith in the Jesus I believe in (The Adam Kadman) as the Buddhist would say (The Primordial Buddha) from the begining a story of our potentale as humans. Namasté Wade The Jesus story incorporated elements from the tales of other deities recorded in this widespread area, such as many of the following world saviors and "sons of God," most or all of whom predate the Christian myth, and a number of whom were crucified or executed.33a Adad of Assyria Adonis, Apollo, Heracles ("Hercules") and Zeus of Greece Alcides of Thebes Attis of Phrygia Baal of Phoenicia Bali of Afghanistan Beddru of Japan Buddha of India Crite of Chaldea Deva Tat of Siam Hesus of the Druids Horus, Osiris, and Serapis of Egypt, whose long- haired, bearded appearance was adopted for the Christ character34 Indra of Tibet/India Jao of Nepal Krishna of India Mikado of the Sintoos Mithra of Persia Odin of the Scandinavians Prometheus of Caucasus/Greece Quetzalcoatl of Mexico Salivahana of Bermuda Tammuz of Syria (who was, in a typical mythmaking move, later turned into the disciple Thomas35) Thor of the Gauls Universal Monarch of the Sibyls36 Wittoba of the Bilingonese Xamolxis of Thrace Zarathustra/Zoroaster of Persia Zoar of the Bonzes The Major Players Buddha Although most people think of Buddha as being one person who lived around 500 B.C.E., the character commonly portrayed as Buddha can also be demonstrated to be a compilation of godmen, legends and sayings of various holy men both preceding and succeeding the period attributed to the Buddha.37 The Buddha character has the following in common with the Christ figure:38 Buddha was born of the virgin Maya, who was considered the "Queen of Heaven."38a He was of royal descent. He crushed a serpent's head. Sakyamuni Buddha had 12 disciples.38b He performed miracles and wonders, healed the sick, fed 500 men from a "small basket of cakes," and walked on water.38c He abolished idolatry, was a "sower of the word," and preached "the establishment of a kingdom of righteousness."38d He taught chastity, temperance, tolerance, compassion, love, and the equality of all. He was transfigured on a mount. Sakya Buddha was crucified in a sin-atonement, suffered for three days in hell, and was resurrected.38e He ascended to Nirvana or "heaven." Buddha was considered the "Good Shepherd"39, the "Carpenter"40, the "Infinite and Everlasting."40a He was called the "Savior of the World" and the "Light of the World." Horus of Egypt The stories of Jesus and Horus are very similar, with Horus even contributing the name of Jesus Christ. Horus and his once-and-future Father, Osiris, are frequently interchangeable in the mythos ("I and my Father are one").41 The legends of Horus go back thousands of years, and he shares the following in common with Jesus: Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave/manger42, with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.43 He was a child teacher in the Temple and was baptized when he was 30 years old.44 Horus was also baptized by "Anup the Baptizer," who becomes "John the Baptist." He had 12 disciples. He performed miracles and raised one man, El-Azar- us, from the dead. He walked on water. Horus was transfigured on the Mount. He was crucified, buried in a tomb and resurrected. He was also the "Way, the Truth, the Light, the Messiah, God's Anointed Son, the Son of Man, the Good Shepherd, the Lamb of God, the Word" etc.

Namasté Wade